Curse

HawkofStorms · Nov 14, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caligo

How is it more costly? They are not losing money by not using sf/joining sf groups. They are just simply not making as much money as those who do. Sounds like a case of 'Wahh... If I can't have it, neither should they!'.

Costly as in terms of time and effort. As in economic theory. People who want to group in non-speed clears have to put together significantly more effort to find likeminded individuals then those who UWSC.

People who are actually using logic - One
People who are just calling their opposition crybabies - Zero

Golgotha · Nov 14, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

I guess its also stupid to use gold as a standard in the real world after all its price also falls and rises.How stupid of us.

We don't anymore.

The Blood Countess · Nov 14, 2009, 11:29 PM // 23:29

People who want to do Underworld old school (or balanced) should just make friends who want to do the same... I'm in a guild that did UWSC all the time, but sometimes we would get bored and spend 3 hours on a "fun clear".

Lots of guilds plan regular events where they do things like UW, FOW, DOA (and yes even HM dungeons *gasp*)... with balanced groups FOR FUN. They dont do this to make money. They just enjoy playing.

You don't see a lot of balanced teams forming in uw looking for pugs cause people like to do elite areas with friends (more reliable, they all get on vent and talk, they don't rage on each other).

AtomicMew · Nov 15, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Costly as in terms of time and effort. As in economic theory. People who want to group in non-speed clears have to put together significantly more effort to find likeminded individuals then those who UWSC.

People who are actually using logic - One
People who are just calling their opposition crybabies - Zero

Logic fail. 0 != 1

Stop being a crybaby. If you don't like SF dont use it.

HawkofStorms · Nov 15, 2009, 01:08 AM // 01:08

I'm glad I already have traversc on my ignore list. Not even being able to see his post, I already know it is a troll.

Edit: Yep, just unignored him just to see what he said. Thanks for not disappointing me. /back on ignore list

Stop The Storm · Nov 15, 2009, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

You might complain if Mc Donald's was the only place you could eat at.

Complaining doesn't make the issue any less valid,broken is broken.

so perma is the only way to play the game? lol

if you dont like it, dont use it, noone is forcing you.

all these people who say perma is invincibility/god mode etc.

id LOVE you to come dual tank with me in doa

upier · Nov 15, 2009, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Someone like upier likes the current inflationary regime because it rewards him. He can't farm the game efficiently, because that requires skill. But if someone creates an easy, semi-efficient cut-and-paste wiki farm, he's better off because he saves time. However, since someone like upier is farming a specific goal, making his life easy just makes him quit playing sooner. Once he's got GWAMM, he's out of goals and he's gone.

In any event, easy farms SHOULD be inefficient. Bad players can graduate from easy farms by putting some effort into the game and sucking less. Remove the incentive to leave easy farms behind for more complex activities, and there are two bad consequences. First, people never improve at the game. Second, the grind necessary to buy really nice things becomes prohibitive, because any chimp can get currency in a hurry.

If you want to make everybody happy here, you make the items that upier wants (title track consumables) more readily available. ANet's actually done a very nice job of that this year with Nicholas. Prices on sugar, booze and party points are 25-50% lower than they were a year ago. But evidently this isn't enough for some people.

I've been looking at this post over and over and over again and I think it has finally hit me why we will never be able to agree on this subject.
It seems to me that you find farming and grind not only to be acceptable but actually desired activities in a game such as GW.
And I feel exactly the opposite. The expansion of grind and farming was the worst thing to happen to PvE.
So while I strive to minimize or to even remove it, you are striving for ways of keeping it in the game.

Tenebrae · Nov 15, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stop The Storm

if you dont like it, dont use it, noone is forcing you.
all these people who say perma is invincibility/god mode etc.
id LOVE you to come dual tank with me in doa

Id love to see you tank in DoA with a W/N for example ... no right ? thats what i thought.
Bolded statement pfff , 987th time i see that BS here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Stop being a crybaby. If you don't like SF dont use it.

Oh wait , 988 right now.

3 words to that statement , pointless , useless and worthless.

Abedeus · Nov 15, 2009, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stop The Storm

so perma is the only way to play the game? lol

if you dont like it, dont use it, noone is forcing you.

all these people who say perma is invincibility/god mode etc.

id LOVE you to come dual tank with me in doa

You are an idiot.

This is a multiplayer game.

Anything that outclasses other...classes should be nerfed down to hell faster than you can say DURR DURR HERPDEDEERP!, but you probably should be playing single player games.

Stop The Storm · Nov 15, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

how does shadow form outclass something else?

its just DIFFERENT. you can farm perfectly fine on any class, there are hundreds of different builds out there.

stop your f*cking whining and play the game how YOU want to, not how somebody else is.

Xenex Xclame · Nov 15, 2009, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stop The Storm

so perma is the only way to play the game? lol

if you dont like it, dont use it, noone is forcing you.

all these people who say perma is invincibility/god mode etc.

id LOVE you to come dual tank with me in doa

No perma isn't the only way you can play the game,im happy someone commented on that post.

My example would be more complete and accurate if i added to it.

You might complain if Mc Donalds was the only place you could eat at.
in this example you can do two things, you could either eat in or you could eat out which means you must eat Mc Donalds.

SF is Mc Donalds in this example, everything else is eating in, which means eating food that isnt so tasty and is crap.

You can use SF or you can use something (anything else) that is crap.

(I know some people might like like Mc Donald food or like homemade food,in those cases just replace Mc Donalds with whichever is yoru favorite food, and homemade with whichever is your least favorite)

Tenebrae · Nov 15, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stop The Storm

you can tank in DoA with a warrior, same with an ele and monk, what makes SF so special? nothing, its just DIFFERENT. stop your whining, noob.

You dont know what you are talking about . You are one of those that is going to cry if SF gets nerfed. No one is whining so stop dropping your BS and calling ppl names.

Stop The Storm · Nov 15, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

ill just use something else, but funny thing is, SF wont get nerf'd and i love the fact all you weasels are gonna sit on here all day and cry about it

youre probably one of the people who campaigned to get 55 nerf'd too because it was so unfair and "cheating"

AtomicMew · Nov 15, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Id love to see you tank in DoA with a W/N for example ... no right ? thats what i thought.
Bolded statement pfff , 987th time i see that BS here.

Oh wait , 988 right now.

3 words to that statement , pointless , useless and worthless.

It's a completely valid argument. I could explain why, but I already did countless times, and doing so again WOULD indeed by pointless, useless and worthless.

As Hawk of Storms said, neither side is listening, but mostly crybabies QQing for nerf.

Anyway, it hardly matters at this point in time, so get off your crusade lol. That goes for everyone QQing for a nerf, too.

Abedeus · Nov 15, 2009, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stop The Storm

ill just use something else, but funny thing is, SF wont get nerf'd and i love the fact all you weasels are gonna sit on here all day and cry about it

youre probably one of the people who campaigned to get 55 nerf'd too because it was so unfair and "cheating"

55 couldn't solo even one area of UW. Either the Maelstrom killed him, Terrorwebs (knockdowns), Mesmers or tons of other mobs. Neither could 600.

Also, you know what happened to people who were saying "Ursan Blessing won't get nerfed, don't like it, don't play it" before it finally got nerfed?

THEY SHUT THE HELL UP!

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

It's a completely valid argument. I could explain why, but I already did countless times, and doing so again WOULD indeed by pointless, useless and worthless.

As Hawk of Storms said, neither side is listening, but mostly crybabies QQing for nerf.

Anyway, it hardly matters at this point in time, so get off your crusade lol. That goes for everyone QQing for a nerf, too.

In online games, you can't say "don't like, don't care". Online games have economies, balance and other things that need to be taken care of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stop The Storm

you can tank in DoA with a warrior, same with an ele and monk, what makes SF so special? nothing, its just DIFFERENT. stop your whining, noob.

You can't SC UW with 8 tanks. And did you even do a DoA clear with a warrior tank? It takes FOREVER. Assassin has:

- Spell protection.
- Attack immunity (doesn't need strong armor against physical)
- Mobility (no -90% movement speed)
- E-Management or self-heal

And for solo purposes, damage dealing or AoE PvE-Only degeneration spells.

Can your precious warrior tank solo anything? No. Can your Elementalist solo anything in UW? No. Can a Monk solo a whole area in UW? NO!

MisterB · Nov 15, 2009, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

55 couldn't solo even one area of UW. Either the Maelstrom killed him, Terrorwebs (knockdowns), Mesmers or tons of other mobs. Neither could 600.

Your cited examples will only defeat inexperienced 55 or 600 players. Maelstrom and Meteor Shower can easily be avoided by stepping out of it. Spell Breaker allows duo builds to easily clear areas that are more difficult for solo 55 or 600 builds. Spirit Bond deals with the skeletons. A 55 could solo in UW, but it was difficult before the skeletons were added, and their addition only increases that difficulty further.

Shadow Form lets you fit all of the defense in fewer slots, is much easier and faster to run, and leaves you with more attributes and skill slots to kill stuff.

Abedeus · Nov 15, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Your cited examples will only defeat inexperienced 55 or 600 players. Maelstrom and Meteor Shower can easily be avoided by stepping out of it. Spell Breaker allows duo builds to easily clear areas that are more difficult for solo 55 or 600 builds. Spirit Bond deals with the skeletons. A 55 could solo in UW, but it was difficult before the skeletons were added, and their addition only increases that difficulty further.

Shadow Form lets you fit all of the defense in fewer slots, is much easier and faster to run, and leaves you with more attributes and skill slots to kill stuff.

Yes, Meteor Storm and Maelstrom can be avoided.

But SF makes avoiding obsolete, you don't even get targeted by the spell. Also you can't perma-Spell Breaker the Mind Reapers or other Mesmers in the UW. You also can be knocked down, unless you take Fleeting Stability, but then you must go Mo/D instead of Mo/W for Frenzy.

Also, on Hard Mode, Dying Nightmares destroy 55 and hinder 600s. SF has none of those problems. Also, Bleeding harms 55 in a small way. So do interrupts by Skull Crack. Again, SF can't be interrupted by an attack, and they rarely get enough adrenaline for it. While we're at it, Fear Me! from Grasping Darknesses very, very rarely affed Perma-SFs, and even then they're almost dead. 55s can die when fighting them unprepared.

SF simply has too much defense in one skill. Melee, Ranged, Spells, non-Skill Interrupts, Enchantment Removals, Conditions, Hexes. Basically 95% of the things in UW can't hit you, except for PBAoE Frozen Burst, Traps from worms and Shock. Everything else either fails or misses.

MisterB · Nov 15, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Yes, Meteor Storm and Maelstrom can be avoided.

But SF makes avoiding obsolete, you don't even get targeted by the spell. Also you can't perma-Spell Breaker the Mind Reapers or other Mesmers in the UW. You also can be knocked down, unless you take Fleeting Stability, but then you must go Mo/D instead of Mo/W for Frenzy.

Also, on Hard Mode, Dying Nightmares destroy 55 and hinder 600s. SF has none of those problems. Also, Bleeding harms 55 in a small way. So do interrupts by Skull Crack. Again, SF can't be interrupted by an attack, and they rarely get enough adrenaline for it. While we're at it, Fear Me! from Grasping Darknesses very, very rarely affed Perma-SFs, and even then they're almost dead. 55s can die when fighting them unprepared.

SF simply has too much defense in one skill. Melee, Ranged, Spells, non-Skill Interrupts, Enchantment Removals, Conditions, Hexes. Basically 95% of the things in UW can't hit you, except for PBAoE Frozen Burst, Traps from worms and Shock. Everything else either fails or misses.

I never said playing a 55 in UW was easy, only that it's possible. A 55 can survive a Rend if they are prepared. Multiple Rends will destroy you, though. I don't really want to discuss permanent Shadow Form again, but we do agree on the points you have made. There are counters to the difficulties you have presented with running a Protective Spirit based build in UW posted in other threads, like "Art of Underworld," Fuzzy Taco's necromancer guides, and Kcp's 55 UW necro thread. Shadow Form just ignores all of that.

AtomicMew · Nov 15, 2009, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc View Post
It's a completely valid argument. I could explain why, but I already did countless times, and doing so again WOULD indeed by pointless, useless and worthless.

As Hawk of Storms said, neither side is listening, but mostly crybabies QQing for nerf.

Anyway, it hardly matters at this point in time, so get off your crusade lol. That goes for everyone QQing for a nerf, too.

In online games, you can't say "don't like, don't care". Online games have economies, balance and other things that need to be taken care of.

What you say does not contradict the reasons for it being a valid argument.

Abedeus · Nov 15, 2009, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

What you say does not contradict the reasons for it being a valid argument.

Argument = "Don't like it, don't use it."

"Don't like it, don't use it" = SINGLE PLAYER GAMES.

In GW, you are forced to use it if you want to get into teams.

Also, it's an overpowered skill. Do you know an online-only game where an overpowered skill is accepted? I don't.